The Treaty Debates: Part 1

Welcome to the History of Ireland Hello listeners, sorry for yet another delay But the last few weeks have seen a bout of Covid finally take down the history of Ireland And this was then shortly followed by a flight home to the motherland Which is admittedly a lot more fun That’s right, this podcast is no longer being recorded on the lands of the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation And instead it was recorded overlooking the Atlantic And typed up in the De Valera Library in County Clare Which is ironic, considering how much I’ve been tearing into poor old Dev of late Hopefully the lovely staff don’t kick me out Anyway, let’s get cracking into the Dáil Treaty debates

On December 14th, the day the treaty debates began The Freeman Journal wrote the following That the utmost good feeling exists And nothing but a most exemplary discussion Wholly worthy of the great movement that has accomplished the freedom of Ireland is anticipated The men who have been staunch comrades throughout the days of terror Are not likely to descend to the indignity of abuse Well look, unfortunately To say that this proved to be a little bit over optimistic Is one hell of an understatement The treaty debates were messy And what followed them can only be described as tragic

But before we get into the debates themselves It’s important to consider those doing the debating And think about the make-up of the second Dáil So let’s do a quick refresher on where the Dáil was sitting at this point in time The first Dáil was created after the British election of 1918 When Sinn Féin TDs ran against the Irish Parliamentary Party and a range of Unionists They then won a landslide and, as we know, refused to take their seats in Westminster This first Dáil lasted from 1919 to 1921 When another election was held This time however, Sinn Féin ran unconsested in the south of Ireland As in, due to the fact it was the middle of a war Literally no polling took place and not a single person cast a vote And that’s not even the worst bit Some constituents were totally and utterly disenfranchised As five TDs held multiple seats The five being Collins, de Valera, Griffiths, Sean Milroy and Owen MacNeill

This means that the second Dáil, as historian Michael Laffin puts it Lacked a clear mandate from the people He argued that perhaps the most serious disadvantage Was that the priorities of the Dáil and its cabinet differed from And were even opposed to those held by the great majority of Irish nationalists He argued that what that majority of nationalists wanted was An end to fighting accompanied by Irish independence The reunification of the country And finally and least importantly The achievement of a republic Another historian Michael Hopkinson agreed Writing The treaty’s fate was to be decided not by popular will But by organisations, military and political Which did not have a close, clearly defined relationship With the huge majority of the Irish population Basically no one had voted for anyone who would be debating the treaty And on top of this, many of them were fairly inexperienced politicians In fact this was arguably their first debate of any real substance Worse again, this was really the first time any of them Were being asked to officially declare their views And as Freeman puts it The Dáil’s elected leaders had never, up until this point Collectively considered such a fundamental or divisive matter Nor one with such explosive implications

With all that in mind, let’s consider the political map The second Dáil consisted of 125 members For a motion such as the treaty to pass, they just needed a simple majority This meant the magic number was 63 votes That’s how many TDs, Collins, Griffith and those in favour of the treaty Needed to get on side Usually Dáil meetings had been carried out at the Mansion House Unfortunately though, there had been a bit of a double booking There was a Christmas fair on at the Mansion House And apparently no one thought that maybe, just maybe It could have been cancelled, or moved Instead, what I have to say is a very Irish move So as not to bother anyone, the Dáil moved to Earlsford Terrace Which back then was home of University College Dublin And is now the National Concert Hall Honestly, I can just imagine the conversation Oh, sorry now, there we were just thinking of debating the fate of the nation Oh, you have a fair on? Ah look, sure, no bother, don’t mind us, we’ll head somewhere else No, no, no, no, it’s not a bother, not a bother at all Don’t be worrying about us, we wouldn’t want to put you out

Anyway, the proceedings kicked off at 11.35am First with a roll call, and then a round of prayers The debates themselves were chaired by Owen MacNeill Who had been elected as Councillor, or the Speaker of the House It was a job he described as troublesome and tiresome And the first few days of the debates really did test his skills The first thing that was debated was whether or not the debate itself Should be held in private or open to the public On that first day there were over 100 journalists in attendance And TDs argued that everyone would be more willing to speak freely if in private While others argued that, you know, maybe everything should be kept public Because this was really important In the end they landed on a mix of both Starting with a few days of private sessions And then public sessions the next week Nothing much happened on that first day

But things started getting interesting on Thursday the 15th As we know, Dev was already vehemently opposed to the treaty as it stood But he had a plan He was going to quote, counter treaty with treaty And so on that Thursday, Dev Valaire proposed an alternative to the treaty One that very quickly became known as document number 2 Document number 2 was similar to the treaty But changed Ireland’s relationship to the British Commonwealth And instead suggested Yep, you guessed it Good old external association Dev would still not let this idea die External association had failed repeatedly to get any traction with the British And personally I agree with the historians that argue It was a bit of a waste of time at this point

However, not everyone agrees with me And some think it was a stroke of genius FSL Lyons writes that The fundamental purpose of document number 2 Was to exclude Britain from interfering in the internal affairs of the new Irish state YJJ Lee writes that it was a truly remarkable effort To reconcile what might not unreasonably be called The objective interests of Britain and Ireland It sought to reconcile principle with pragmatism In a manner that would have done credit to statesmen Of the utmost experience and intellectual and emotional maturity Much less a relative neophyte in the realm of international affairs It is widely acknowledged now That Dev Valaire anticipated the broad thrust of subsequent developments Within the British Empire more accurately Than any of the signatories of the treaty Or of his numerous other critics So I don’t know A document well ahead of its time Or unhelpful nitpicking That brought up an issue that had already been turned down repeatedly Look, I’ll leave you decide

But either way, its introduction was a major political blunder For the usually very astute Dev Valaire Basically, it was just too close to the original treaty Those in favour of the treaty Didn’t see why this subtle change was needed Especially if it was going to antagonise the British While those against the treaty Didn’t see how this new version solved any of their problems External association still was not a republic As historian Joe Regan puts it Tactically, its introduction so early in the debate Was a gross miscalculation Neither the doctrinaire republicans Pro-treaty deputies Nor those occupying the no man’s land of the undecided Were prepared to attempt to find any common ground Within its provisions And document number two Was ignominiously withdrawn by its author

Dev didn’t really help himself either When on December 19th He argued against making the document open to the public He argued that it should be kept private Until it was ready to be proposed formally And this just didn’t go down well One TD, Sean Milleroy Pointed out that it quote Went to the root of the whole issue While Collins argued That Dev was disagreeing with the treaty as it stood Without letting people see his alternative Which rightly does seem unfair It’s probably true that Dev knew That the majority of the population Would not care about what Griffith described As a quibble of words And it never really went anywhere

In fact, in general Between Wednesday 14th and Friday 16th Not much of substance Other than document number two was discussed And a lot of time was spent Arguing about the credentials of the plenipotentiaries And whether they had the right to sign the treaty And in fact, things got quite personal For example, Brewer managed to get a few digs in At Collins and Griffith Calling Collins The subject of an unwarranted And self-cultivated personality cult Which to be fair Is pretty accurate While one TD, Liam Mellows Summed up the hard line of view very well saying The delegates had no power to sign away The rights of Ireland and the Irish Republic But I don’t know This very group had elected the delegates As plenipotentiaries And the British at least Believed very much that they had had the right to sign As did the plenipotentiaries themselves

All of this led to the question Of what would happen if the Dáil refused With that in mind On Saturday 17th In the last day of the private sessions The strength of the IRA was debated The big question was Could the IRA hold off the British? Sean McGoan An IRA general Described himself as a plain soldier Who realises what it is to be at war And his view Was that the IRA had quote 5,000 volunteers and ammunition enough To last only 7 minutes of hard fighting If England goes to war again She will wipe us all out Mulcahy backed him up Saying the English could not be driven into the sea Nor even expelled from fortified centres Of course Cahal Brewer disagreed Though his exact words were not reported As they were seen as a security risk And instead the records just note That Brewer made a statement In reply to the last speaker As to how the army stood But in general We know that his view Was that the army was stronger than ever

Now This should have meant a lot Coming from the Minister for Defence But really Mulcahy was the one Actually in control of the IRA And there’s no real clear evidence As to why Brewer thought the army was so strong As we know He had never been the most practical Most historians Agree with Mulcahy though Saying that if the British Had gone in for a total war There’s no way that the IRA Which was flagging at this point Could have put up a substantial defence

For many of the hardliners though The question of whether or not the IRA could win Was very much beside the point One hardliner Sean Eckingham said I may be a diehard But it’s better to die hard than soft Terence McSweeney died hard He was over 90 days of dying But what did he die for? Did he die for this thing that is before us? Mary McSweeney Another hardline TD And sister of Terence McSweeney Shouted that he had not

Now this last private debate Lasted right up Until 20 minutes before midnight And there was still no agreement Everyone took the Sunday off And returned on Monday the 19th For the first debate Open to the public Since everything had begun The atmosphere really had worsened Over the weekend And protesters had popped up From both sides Holding signs saying things like Stand by Collins and the treaty Or up the republic No free state

But that Monday Arthur Griffith put forward his motion Which stated The Dáil Éireann approves of the treaty Between Great Britain and Ireland Signed in London On 6th December 1921 This was the language Everyone would be voting on Once calling the motion He then laid out his case for the treaty In a way that was described as Characteristically measured and direct Appealing more to reason than emotion He was then followed By General Sean McGoan Who seconded the motion Saying To me Symbols Recognitions Shadows Have very little meaning To me This treaty gives me What I and my comrades fought for It gives us For the first time in 700 years The evacuation Of Britain’s armed forces Out of Ireland

It was then Dev’s turn to respond And He quote Was said to electrify the room He argued That the treaty would restrict The onward march of the nation And he was backed up By input from the likes of Austen Stack Count Plunkett And Erskine Childers By all accounts He made a very good case

But then That afternoon It was Collins’ turn And he led With what became One of his most famous phrases Freeman describes How Collins served up The most effective defence of the treaty With a carefully calibrated speech Collins argued I do not recommend the treaty For more than it is Equally I do not recommend it for less than it is In my opinion It gives us freedom Not the ultimate freedom That all nations desire And develop to But the freedom To achieve it This idea Of the freedom To achieve freedom Would be Very powerful In convincing those On the fence About the treaty

Finally Barton rounded off the day And he was a pretty interesting figure At this point He was He was Kind of anti-treaty But also He was trying to defend Why he had signed the thing He stated I do not seek To shield myself From the charge Of having broken my oath Of allegiance to the Republic My signature is proof of that For myself I preferred war I told my colleagues so But for the nation Without consultation I dared not accept That responsibility I signed The mixed messaging That Barton was coming out with Really mirrored How a lot of the Dáil was thinking Strong arguments Had been made By both the pro-treatyites And the anti-treatyites alike And at this halfway point Of the debates It really was unclear Which way things would go

At this halfway point We’ll leave it there Until next episode Which I promise Will follow hot on the heels of this one Now, one thing before I hop off Now that I’m back in Ireland I’d be keen to organise Something different for the podcast I’m in talks with a few of My other favourite Irish shows So look out for some crossover episodes Any of you have ideas for anyone I should get in touch with Do let me know But I’d also like to hear from ye And see what ye might be interested in We could do a live show Maybe some interviews Maybe the Die Hard fans could just Get together and grab a drink I don’t know Get in touch at TheHistoryOfIrelandPodcast At gmail.com And let me know if you have any ideas Or if you’re keen for anything And if not We’ll just keep ploughing along with the show Until next time

Thanks for listening Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts And if you’re enjoying it Give us a review on Apple Podcasts Or tell your friends It really helps You can also support the show Buy merch And get in touch All through our website TheHistoryOfIreland.com Or you can follow us on Facebook or Twitter It’s always great hearing from you guys And if I’ve made a mistake Please do let me know The History of Ireland Was written and produced by me Kevin Doyle Additional research and fact checking By Robert Babbington Music by Liam Doyle And additional help From assistant producer Aoife Murphy

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