The Treaty Debates: Part 2

Welcome to the history of Ireland On the afternoon of day seven of the treaty debates Mary McSweeney stood up, removed her hat, her scarf and her coat and began an almost three hour speech against the treaty It was the longest anyone had spoke across the entire debates And as the Irish Times reported She was eloquent, tearful, ironic, fervent, reproachful, implacable But bitterness was the driving force behind her every word Dev saw it as an important speech, the coat affected the final vote

Like other anti-treatyites before her She didn’t care if Ireland couldn’t win the battle As she put it If England exterminates the men, women and children of this generation The blades of grass dyed with their blood will rise Like the dragon’s teeth of old Into armed men and the fight will begin in the next generation But I am concerned for the honour of my country before the world And I tell the world that it is not the true voice of Ireland That has spoken so flippantly about oats and their breaking It is not the true voice of the people of Ireland that has spoken to you Have no doubt about it, whatever

McSweeney was one of the most fervent anti-treatyites there were And this was mirrored in the five other female members of the Dáil Catis McIvitts, Kathleen Clark, Ada English, Kathleen O’Callaghan and Margaret Pierce Each was extremely anti-treaty It is interesting to ask why the women were all such hardliners Some argue that it was simply because many of them had lost husbands or brothers in the fighting But I just think that’s ridiculously sexist and does them a huge disservice And I actually argued about not putting it in here But I think it should be highlighted how much these women have been let down by historians to date

My take on it is that these women were radical Because to be a female politician at this point was a radical stance They faced sexism, centuries of disenfranchisement and had a huge amount to lose If the new Ireland stayed too close to the British model In fact, they saw the whole idea of British rule as morally corrupt With McSweeney arguing, this fight of ours has been essentially a spiritual fight It has been a fight of right against wrong A fight of small people struggling for a spiritual ideal Against a mighty, rapacious and material empire And as the things of the spirit have always prevailed, they prevail now

Francis Hackett, a writer at the time of the treaty debates Described the split between the anti-treaty and the pro-treaty forces Saying this, our people, mine and yours Are separated not by document one and document two But by scientific spirit, liberty, curiosity and doubt And romantic spirit, which is altitude, certitude and platitude I mention Hackett because the historian Tom Garvin takes this further Expanding on his points and breaking the doll into two political subcultures Republican moralism and nationalist pragmatism

He argues that Republican moralism was quote Closely connected with the austere and Puritan Catholicism That grew up in Ireland in Victorian times These Republican moralists tied virtue and moral fibre to the belief in a republic The more fervently you fought for a republic The more moral, righteous and catholic you were As Garvin puts it, the cult of the republic stands in for the kingdom of Christ He argues that Dev was the leader of this subculture Which is probably true But he definitely wasn’t the most moral of the republican moralists Arguably that award has to go to Mary McSweeney Which is why I mention all of this right now

National pragmatists on the other hand Were Irish versions of the political ideas derived from the English and French enlightenment They cared less for symbols and more for finding real power for their country McSweeney had no time for them Believing they were focused too much on materialism And had lost sight of what really mattered Garvin explains that republican moralists believed the morally superior should rule Regardless of the majority preference The pragmatists argued that it was either treaty or war And that the vast majority did not want to go back to war The moralists didn’t care As McSweeney puts it This matter has been put to us as the treaty or war I say now if it were war I would take it gladly and gleefully Not flippantly but gladly Because I realise that there are evils worse than war And no physical victory can compensate for a spiritual surrender See again this idea that she’s leaning into spirituality This was how the moralists saw things

Now obviously splitting it down into two groups like this Is slightly reductive As the reasons people had for supporting or opposing the treaty were myriad Even Garvin admits that his theory is a little over simplistic And in fact rather than seeing it as a staunch either or Republic moralist or national pragmatist Probably a good idea to imagine it as a scale With Dole members leaning one way more than the other

But these ideas for me anyway and the idea of the republican moralists Help make sense of those like Mary McSweeney Who most vehemently opposed the treaty The republic was everything to them And their whole lives and identities Had been shaped around the achievement of this goal And the new kind of Ireland that a republic would represent They fought for it and died for it And now morally questionable pragmatists Were giving up and taking the easy way out I’m sure you’ve heard it said that this new pro-treaty Ireland Would change nothing but the colour of the post boxes This was not what many wanted

As historian Darragh Gannon puts it Markiewicz despised what she saw as the treaties attempt To entrench privilege in the so called free state She saw the treaty as a sugar coated home rule bill And instead argued for quote James Connolly’s ideal for a workers republic A cooperative commonwealth When Markiewicz in particular argued for a republic She did so because she wanted to totally upend the system She wanted a new less capitalist society That’s what the republic meant for her And to be honest it’s an argument that’s much easier to get on board with Versus Dev’s mathematical quibbling over oaths

As we explore the final days of the treaty debates And see the split that follows I think it’s important to step into their shoes And understand why they thought it reasonable To tear the country apart For them it was everything And if you’ll allow me a little bit of a left wing rant If we look at the Celtic Tiger Ireland that we have lived through Over the last twenty thirty years Maybe they were right to argue for a new different less capitalist Ireland But anyway I’ll leave the soap boxing to Mary McSweeney

She ended her speech after two hours and forty minutes Stating I beg of you to take the decision to throw out that treaty It was one of the most impassioned arguments against the treaty That had been made so far Once she was finished Dev declared I’m afraid we will have to sit tomorrow night We wish to try to have the debate ended before Christmas Griffith then complained about McSweeney’s lengthy speech Saying the whole business was held up this evening By one member who spoke for two hours and forty minutes Any person in this assembly can express what he wishes to express In from ten to fifteen minutes Do you sense an undercurrent of sexism there? I don’t know But it sounds a little bit like Oi we had to listen to this woman speak for over two hours Notice how he says he can express what he wishes in fifteen minutes

Anyway It’s true that at this point people were feeling tired by the debates So far twenty eight TDs had spoken Fifteen in favour and thirteen against Almost fifty fifty It’s said that weariness was evident on the face of practically every deputy in attendance Most notably De Valere Who by now appeared haggard and pale

The next day on December 22nd There was an interesting argument over why the debates were being held in English In fact one TD Liam de Roosta made a great argument saying And I am going to butcher this but bear with me We are speaking Irish for the first time here in a week If you speak Gaelic you will not be able to understand what we are saying He was arguing in favour of the treaty And believed that all the quibbling over Dominion vs Republic vs Free State Was a failure of the English language And that it wouldn’t matter if they were all speaking Irish And I have to say I kind of love it As a way of putting the Republican diehards back in their box Who cares about an oath in English? We should all be speaking Irish But by the end of the day They were still arguing in English And no closer to an answer

I think we should definitely sit through the night Dev suggested And take on the debate again in the morning I propose we end this debate tomorrow Griffith replied to him saying The President asked me a couple of days ago about winding this thing up And I agreed Since then a lady who spoke for three hours Stood up against any closure We offered a choice of time or time limit for the speeches But there was no agreement Therefore we are going on We may adjourn for Christmas But we will have no closure

Harry McSweeney was not too happy with this May I appeal to the House generally Against the sneers of Mr. Arthur Griffith at my speech I consider the fact that what I went through for 74 days at Brixton Prison Gives me a right to speak for the honour of my nation now Now for you Griffith

In the end Collins put forward a motion to adjourn the debates until January 3rd As he put it I am anxious for reasons historical and others That the remarks of every member of the Dáil should go on record He suggested working through Christmas And then there was a great back and forth between him and Markievicz About who was quote the most worn and weary But in the end the Dáil voted in favour of the Christmas break Much to Dev’s displeasure As the debates closed for Christmas He declared there must be a common agreement That there will be no speech making in the interval

And that’s where we’ll leave things for today As I want to give the last days of the debate The time they deserve But don’t worry I’ll have the next episode out in the next day or two So you won’t be left hanging too long Thanks for listening Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts And if you’re enjoying it Give us a review on Apple Podcasts Or tell your friends It really helps You can also support the show Buy merch And get in touch all through our website thehistoryofireland.com Or you can follow us on Facebook or Twitter It’s always great hearing from you guys And if I’ve made a mistake Please do let me know The History of Ireland was written and produced by me, Kevin Doe Additional research and fact checking by Robert Babington Music by Liam Doyle And additional help from assistant producer Aoife Murphy The History of Ireland