Dev Sits Down With The Welsh Wizard

Welcome to the History of Ireland. Last week I ended the episode with a quote from an IRA foot soldier. It stated, In the mind of every soldier was a little republic in which he was the hero. A little republic. A little republic inside each and every soldier. This quote, weirdly more than any other, drives home to me the complicated nature of the situation the Irish had now found themselves in. Throughout the course of this podcast I’ve mentioned time and time again the balancing act that Sinn Féin had to do so as to keep all sides of the Irish movement working together. To do so, Irish leaders had been kind of cleverly vague about what they were actually aiming for. They wanted freedom, but everyone had a slightly different view of what that would actually look like.

You’ll remember Sinn Féin had been started by Arthur Griffith and originally had argued for the idea of a dual monarchy. This concept involves having two separate kingdoms, the Kingdom of Great Britain and the Kingdom of Ireland, totally independent of each other, but who shared the same king. The thinking was this would keep the Ulster Unionists happy while providing freedom to Ireland. Now there was still a small minority of Sinn Féiners who supported this idea, but it was obviously quite problematic for a lot of folk.

Generally the majority of people were fighting for a republic, especially the foot soldiers of the IRA. A republic totally independent of the United Kingdom with no link to the crown and its own head of state. The IRA soldiers may have been fighting vehemently for this, but I do wonder if many of the more politically savvy leaders of the movement believed that this goal of a republic was in any way achievable.

And then on top of that there was the labour movement. You can imagine the likes of those who had set up the Limerick Soviet fighting for something much more radical than a run of the mill republic. Though as we know the labour movement was generally pretty happy to sit on the sidelines and let Sinn Féin fight for freedom. It seems everyone had a different idea of how Ireland should break away from British rule, but at this point it was only the opinion of two people that mattered, Éamon de Valera and David Lloyd George.

After the truce had been signed on July 11th, Dev went to London with Arthur Griffith, Austin Stack and Robert Barton. By all accounts Michael Collins was pissed not to be included, but in the end it made very little difference as de Valera and Lloyd George met entirely alone. Their first meeting occurred on July 14th at 4.30. Frances Stevenson, Lloyd George’s secretary and mistress, had this to say about the British Prime Minister’s state of mind. I had never seen him so excited as he was before de Valera arrived. He kept walking in and out of my room and I could see he was working out the best way of dealing with Dev. He had a big map of the British Empire hung up on the wall in the cabinet room, with its great blotches of red all over it, to impress upon Dev the greatness of the British Empire and the King.

So de Valera arrived at Downing Street and Lloyd George wasn’t the only one excited. Dev had to make his way through a huge crowd of people, apparently all singing and reciting the Rosary. He was welcomed into number 10 Downing Street, the epicentre of the entire British Empire, and was quote offered spirits to drink and cigars to smoke, both of which he refused. Dev and Lloyd George were doing their best to impress each other, and while the British tried to win Dev over with drinks, Dev made sure to act like the eminent statesman of a sovereign nation. One British official noted how they were quote surprised at the way in which de Valera’s staff treated him as royalty and walked out backwards from his presence.

I kind of love how much info we have on these meetings. This is mostly down to the fact one of Lloyd George’s most senior assistants kept a very detailed diary. He lays out a range of interactions between the two men. Both were very intelligent statesmen and it’s fascinating to see how the Welsh wizard dealt with the Longfellow. In one instance, a story I first heard in Michael Laffin’s fantastic lecture series, Lloyd George invited Dev Valera into a room where he would be meeting with the leaders of the various British dominions. He laid his hand on chair and announced, this is the Prime Minister of South Africa’s seat. Then, moving up the large ornate table, he placed his hand on the next seat. This is where the Prime Minister of Canada will sit. This is where the Prime Minister of Australia will sit, and this is where the Prime Minister of New Zealand will sit. Finally, he laid his hand on the last chair and paused. He waited, hoping Dev Valera would fill the silence with the question that was hanging in the air. But Dev Valera was never so easily drawn in. He remained silent and Lloyd George had to continue on awkwardly. And this is the seat for the Prime Minister of Southern Ireland.

Meanwhile, Dev Valera refused to be sucked in, relying on the long-winded manner that had served him so well in Ireland and the States, and had so annoyed Michael Collins. Lloyd George’s mistress wrote, David said he was very difficult to keep on point. He kept on going off on a tangent, and talking in formulas, and refusing to face facts.

This didn’t always win Lloyd George over, however, and at times things could get tense. Dev himself wrote how, as things got hot, Lloyd George walked across the cabinet room, and drawing my attention to all the red markings on the map, put the end of his fountain pen on the spot representing Ireland, which was completely covered by the pen, saying, This is Ireland, Mr Dev Valera, before proceeding to talk about how Britain had mobilised 10 million men during the Great War. It seems Lloyd George was happy to dance between playing both the bad cop and the good cop throughout these negotiations.

There was one point, again referenced by Michael Laughan, in which Lloyd George did cleverly win the upper hand. After seeing an Irish letterhead, or something similar, Lloyd George asked what séistá na hÉireann means. Now, Lloyd George, a fluent Welsh speaker and lover of languages, knew exactly what the translation was. As Laughan says, the PM was too good a negotiator to ever ask a question he didn’t know the answer to. But he feigned ignorance and asked Dev nonetheless. Dev Valera replied, saying, Oh, it simply means the Republic of Ireland. Lloyd George pushed him, however, No, no, what is the literal translation? To which Dev Valera replied, The Irish Free State. Lloyd George said no more. He didn’t need to. Immediately, Dev realised what he had done. Lloyd George had walked Dev into admitting the Irish weren’t technically looking for a republic. They themselves had defined their government as a free state. A definition with a lot more wiggle room. It was a crack that Lloyd George would exploit for months to come.

And interestingly, some form of free state was exactly what Lloyd George was happy to deliver at this point. Right off the bat, he offered Dev dominion status for Ireland. This, quite frankly, was huge. It was an offer from the British that was more than any practical-minded Irish nationalist could even have dreamed of five or ten years previous. The reason this is such a big deal was because dominion status had such a fluid and ever-evolving definition. As one writer from 1922 put it, Expert jurists and statesmen find dominion status extremely difficult to explain, much less to scientifically define. And in fairness, it was bloody complicated. You had the Dominion of Canada, the Commonwealth of Australia, the Dominion of New Zealand, the Union of South Africa, and, randomly, Newfoundland. Canada was the first British territory to be given this dominion status in 1867. Though Wales had technically been described as a dominion way back in the 16th century. Dominion status allowed Canada to create new federal and provincial governments with a huge amount of local power. And, quote, the power of interference of the Imperial Parliament was reduced to the lowest possible minimum. Which, in English, basically means that Westminster would get involved as little as possible. The Dominions were separate political entities who had had their own seat at the Treaty of Versailles. Though they were obviously still intrinsically linked to Britain and not quite independent. Lowest possible minimum still implied there was some British control.

I think it should also be said that all of these countries had happily taken Dominion status as their governments were made up of, you know, British colonists. I’m not sure any of the First Nations peoples of Canada, Australia, or New Zealand would have been that happy with Dominion status. But, as I said, it was a far cry from anything that had been on the table before. Laughan uses a great analogy. He described Dominion status as much like an elevator. You constantly moved up in the world without having to do anything. At this point, the status of the Dominions and their independence seemed to be expanding every single year. It was a big deal that Lord George was offering it. It just shows how far the Irish had pushed the British.

So, throughout three meetings held on the 14th, 15th, and 18th of July, Lord George and Dev O’Leary discussed the idea of Dominion status. After the meetings, it seemed Lord George was left perplexed by Dev. And as described, the quote, Lord George still found it difficult to stay exactly where the Irishman stood. Meanwhile, Dev was mulling over the idea of Dominion status. After the first meeting, he wrote to Collins to explain how it had all gone down. He wrote, The position is simply this. Lord George is developing a proposal which he wishes me to bring in my pocket as a proposal to the Irish nation for its considerations. I am not dissatisfied with the general situation. The proposal will be theirs. We will be free to consider it without prejudice.

Said proposal was then hand delivered to Dev O’Leary late on the evening of the 20th. Tom Jones, Lord George’s quote, foremost official on Irish policy, gave a pretty good summation of it to Dev. That’s useful for us too. He said that, Briefly, it is Dominion status, with all sorts of important powers, but no navy, no hostile tariffs and no coercion of Ulster. Dev had always been dubious of Dominion status for Ireland. He wasn’t so sure that an Irish Dominion would evolve towards increasing independence as the likes of Canada and Australia had. As he put it, Dominion status for Ireland would never be real. Ireland’s proximity to Britain would not allow it to develop as Dominion’s thousands of miles away could. It was one thing for territories on the other side of the world to enjoy Dominion status. They were so far from Britain that it was really in Britain’s best interest to leave them handle the day-to-day running of their territories. Would Westminster be as lenient with a Dominion on its doorstep? That was a big question.

In the end, Dev O’Leary and Lord George met once more on the 21st of July in a meeting Lord George described as being pretty hopeless. Dev O’Leary quote demanded that Ireland should have Dominion status sans frays without any concessions. Any conditions such as regarding the Royal Navy which we consider vital to the safety of these islands to be left for arrangement a subsequent date between the British and Irish governments. He also demanded that Ulster should become part of the Irish Dominion. Failing this, he demanded as his only alternative complete independence for southern Ireland. Long-winded as ever was Dev.

In his autobiography of Dev O’Leary which I’ve lent on heavily for this episode Ronan Fanning writes about what happened next. Lord George replied that if it was Dev O’Leary’s last word that there was nothing left to discuss except when the truce would end. But after Dev had accepted that the truce should continue he agreed to send a considered reply after he returned to Dublin. End quote. So that was that. Just over a week from the start of the truce it was all on the rocks. Lord George had offered this vague idea of Dominion status with some caveats that Ireland would have no navy would not tax Britain and would be nice to Ulster. And Dev O’Leary in a bid to stall for time and see if we could get a better deal was to take this offer back to Ireland to see what the rest of the Irish leadership would make of it all.

Next episode we’ll explore how they took it and see how very close the truce was to falling apart. Music by Liam Doyle and additional help from assistant producer Aoife Murphy. This podcast was recorded in the lands of the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation. Sovereignty was never ceded.